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04 Mar 2019 17:32 #381 by Phoenix

Hi joekane,

Thank you for the kind words, and welcome to the forum :).

And yes we love the “gory details” of the mattress making business, are you kidding me!!!!

Also had a preconception that 'pillow top' meant 'too soft', and 'will develop impressions'. Our current mattress itself wasn't bad at all, and I have to say we were usually happy to return to our bed after sleeping anywhere else.

You make good points regarding personal biases … typically they are either “inherited” from what we consider trustworthy sources or are built over time from direct experiential data and facts, but the inherited type rarely take into account that we all are different and have different needs and preferences, You are correct that many poorly made pillow tops do end up with surface impressions and sagging. Also “side-over …. Rotisserie” sleep position LOL, I understand perfectly what you mean but I am sure your wife will be very willing to forgive the tosses and turns provided that you look for the next solution to minimize it.

That Sealy mattress was a good mattress and your point about being “a decade older” .... this also makes a difference…. don’t we all know that! So yes there have been some substantial qualitative issues and the mattresses that you buy from the major manufacturers, in general, are much lower quality than they were 15 - 20 years ago and the process of continuing to confuse and mislead consumers, make mattresses with built-in obsolescence built into their design, and not disclose meaningful information about the materials that make meaningful quality and value comparisons increasingly difficult is now the norm. Well done going to Magic Sleeper and trying their beds. As you are aware Magic Sleeper are a member of our site which means that I think very highly of them and that I believe they compete well with the best in the industry .. I am glad that they guided you through checking out what feels right to you. You are correct that some Dunlop beds can be too firm for some people and I think that your overall direction of the hybrid / Talalay makes perfect sense.

Generally speaking, there is no such thing as a mattress that is "good for back pain" (just like there is no such thing as one mattress that is suitable for everyone) ... there is only a mattress that is good for "YOU/Him or HER" back pain and this would be a mattress that keeps your spine in good alignment in all your sleeping positions over the course of the night and would be different for different people. Also, remember back pain can happen when you are out of alignment, and this can happens both for too soft and too firm beds. Unfortunately there are far too many unknowns, variables, and different possibilities involved to be able to pinpoint based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or "theory at a distance" It is not possible to "diagnose" any symptoms you have on an online forum as this is would need a thorough in-depth analysis

Shoulder pressure points and pains while sleeping on your back can come from a mattress that is too firm and puts direct pressure on the shoulders, the shoulder blades, or on the back muscles and can also cause soreness or numbness and tingling in the arms or can often come from postural issues as well. There is a bit more information about sleeping positions and posture this in this article here .

Comfort/pressure relief and support/alignment are the two most important functions of a mattress for everyone so you certainly aren't alone in this but the only way to know for certain whether any specific mattress will be a suitable choice that provides you with both will be based on your own careful testing or your own personal experience when you sleep on it because different people can have very different needs and preferences in a mattress in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences).


Regarding the specs of the EH:

“2 inches: base poly foam: (high density 1.8 lbs/cu. ft.) 60 ILD
8 inches: 6 turn 12 3/4 gauge Leggett and Platt wrapped coils
3 inches talalay in three layers:
1 inch ILD 35
1 inch ILD 35
1inch ild 20 (top layer)
wool/silk (firebarrier)
organic cotton quilting
The mattress sides are encased in HD poly foam 1.8lbs/ft. ild 80”


As far as I can see the mattress does not have weak links in terms of durability and materials for average BMI individuals (as described in our mattress durability guidelines ), but I would be a bit cautious regarding quilting materials and keep in mind that Natural, Semi-Synthetic, or Synthetic fibers: Fiber materials are usually used as a quilting material in the cover and will tend to pack down and form impressions to some degree over time (although these will also tend to even out as you sleep in different parts of the mattress) so I would tend to make sure that any fiber layers are only "about an inch or so or less" (again in practical terms I would use 1.5") to minimize any impressions in the mattress to a level that won't have a meaningful effect on the comfort and support of the mattress.”

I am not necessarily a huge fan of three separate layers of 1” latex, most times decisions to have so many separate thin foam layers come from managing SKUs in inventory, etc. Most blended latex, especially the two Talalay producers make a 70% synthetic / 30% natural, the 97% synthetic is confusing to me when people are quoting Talalay. The L&P wrapped coils is a very good coil support system. I have to say I am glad they said the split box spring sounded like it will be just fine (especially with your “five hardwood oak 2.5-inch slats -all with center supports for the bed”. Make sure you check out the warranty details for Eastman House so nothing is “voided”, but it is nice to see people give you honest opinions instead of “forcing” one to buy a new one.

Some side reading To help you better pinpoint the cause of the pains and tossing and and turning you are mentioning I’d recommend a bit of side reading of some of the forum posts that talk about fine-tuning a mattress and may help you recognize or "diagnose" the underlying cause of different types of "symptoms", pain, or discomfort that may be connected to a mattress...

post #2 this is the primary reference post for different "symptoms" that people may experience when they sleep on a mattress)
Post #45 (this is particularly worth reading as well)
Post #2
post #6
post #6
Post #4
Post #7
Post #7
Post #18
Post #136

Please don’t hesitate to ask more questions of us and of any of our trusted members , and I look forward to any updates and finding out what you decided.

Phoenix


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05 Mar 2019 09:42 #382 by joekane

Phoenix,

Thanks much for the considerate and detailed response.

We also did a trip to Gardner's. While a good trip, we did happen to be there for the end of 'president's day', so a touch of ' sale ends tomorrow'. We spent the most time there on the Naturepedics, but post trip I kind of crossed off the dunlop because my wife had a pretty poor reaction to one and I didn't really see the value there (I'm sure if you must have 100% organic its a thought). We are reasonable on this front, not "all organic or nothing'.

The EH Mattress from Magic was by far my wife's favorite, so I was focused on vetting it.

A couple responses for you:

Regarding the quilting:
I believe the mattress has a nominal 14 inch height, and I remember eyeballing it at approx. 13.5 inches with a tape (I think the tufting variation and/or some showroom settling). As we added up to 13 inches with the other materials, I think the quilting should be within your recommended specs.

I am not necessarily a huge fan of three separate layers of 1” latex, most times decisions to have so many separate thin foam layers come from managing SKUs in inventory, etc. Most blended latex, especially the two Talalay producers make a 70% synthetic / 30% natural, the 97% synthetic is confusing to me when people are quoting Talalay. The L&P wrapped coils is a very good coil support system.

Yeah, so I am wondering the same on the talalay. I guess it has to be one of the followiing:

1) its the 'all natural' form of talalay thats speced around 97% natural 3% synth(I've seen this described a few places, but you may disagree if such a thing exists) and they misquoted it as 97% synth 3% natural. But while I think this EH model is from the more 'premium' mattress range, the 97% natural might be out of whack to be included at this price point). So this may be overall unlikely.

2) they were quoting some of the other hd foam in the mattress, and not the Talalay

3) there really isn't any 'talalay' in it.

The rub is how to find out which answer it really is.

Now, Ive seen lots of descriptions of EH models in this general "Luxury English Hand Tufted") collection, with descriptions of '1 to 3 layers of talalay, depending on model'. So that generally matches the detail they gave us on this model. And as you note, they are probably varying up the 1 inch layers to meet different comfort/firmness/price targets across the range.

I've also seen some descriptions where there is some hd foam in the quilting on some models in the range, though none was described here.

Thanks for the links on pain points etc. I have read some of those already, but I can go back and have a thorough run thru with your list.

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07 Mar 2019 12:10 #383 by Phoenix

Hi joekane,

Thanks for your new post with additional questions. I totally understand the “Presidents Day” promotion as both a consumer and an industry insider, This is a really important week for the mattress industry, and for the consumers wanting to get the best value for their money. I am glad that you visited one of Gardner Mattress' shops. As you probably are aware they are one of the Trusted Members of our site which means that They have a long-standing reputable option which means that I think very highly of and that I believe they compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, knowledge, and transparency.
You make good points about the Naturepedics / Organic, a larger majority of people want to be more natural and healthier but are not in the “all organic or nothing” group.

Regarding the vetting of the EH luxury, I agree with your quilting assumption regarding the height and recommended specs.

About your latex options:

1) its the 'all natural' form of talalay thats speced around 97% natural 3% synth(I've seen this described a few places, but you may disagree if such a thing exists) and they misquoted it as 97% synth 3% natural. But while I think this EH model is from the more 'premium' mattress range, the 97% natural might be out of whack to be included at this price point). So this may be overall unlikely.

2) they were quoting some of the other hd foam in the mattress, and not the Talalay

3) there really isn't any 'talalay' in it.


As you lay these out, I really believe the answer is number 1. No HD foam is really ever quoted as 97% natural, so it's not #2, and I really believe the layers are Talalay in the product. Eastman House brand is owned by Eclipse Bedding, in New Jersey, and they use mainly Talalay in products, they are the makers of Zenhaven mattresses, Pure Latexbliss mattresses, and many others. All of these use Talalay, and the ZH and many items of Latexbliss use 100% natural Talalay (and yes you are correct this is some times specked as 97% NR & 3%). It really depends on how you define 100% natural and whether you are talking about 100% of the ingredients in the final product or whether 100% of the latex that is used in the final product is natural (NR) vs synthetic (SBR) or a blend of both.

There are certainly latex cores (both Dunlop and Talalay) that use 100% natural rubber with no synthetic rubber in their formulation and by "convention" these are usually referred to as 100% natural latex meaning that all the rubber that is used to make the foam is natural but there are other ingredients and chemicals that are used to make the products as well that are part of the final composition.

Which is to say that ... any foamed rubber core includes other chemicals or substances that are necessary to manufacture the foam (such as foaming agents, curing agents, accelerators, gelling agents, anti-degradants, sometimes fillers, and others) so the final percentage of rubber in a 100% natural rubber core (outside of any fillers it may include) are generally in the range of about 90-95% or occasionally a little higher, thus people say 97/3%. If you are interested in reading more about NR and SBR rubber in this post about latex .

Having foam in the quilted layer is actually quite common, and is used in pace of polyester fibers so the quilt lasts longer, and the fiber will usually compress faster than foam used in a quilting layer.

Hope all this helps and I’d be curious to find out how you decide to proceed, it is great for all the consumers to read shared experiences of other consumers like yourself who are doing all the needed research and weighing each part of their personal value equation when buying a product that so important to their general wellbeing.

Phoenix


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17 Mar 2019 14:48 #384 by joekane

Thanks Phoenix,

Well, we went back to Magic Sleeper and did a final run through for PPP with the eastman house. Did another round in comfort levels above and below, but we wound up pulling the trigger on the Eastman House.

It will be delivered on Thursday. I'll keep you posted but we are hopeful and anxious to start the true test...

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20 Mar 2019 10:31 #385 by Phoenix

Hi joekane,

Nice work going back to Magic Sleeper and going through the PPP....impressive. As I said before, it is always nice for other consumers to read about other consumers doing the necessary research, thank you for that.

And congratulations on the new mattress. Yes, we look forward to the update, but please take some time for you to adjust to the new mattress and the new mattress adjust to you :).

Phoenix


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