>

Welcome to The Mattress Underground FORUM! :cheer:
The first place to start your research is the Mattress Shopping Tutorial
Select the Search Forum tab below to gain access to answers to many mattress related questions.
Select the Ask An Expert tab below to reach out to any of our Expert Members for guidance and advice.

America’s Beducator™. Owner of Mattress To Go in Shelby Township, MI Creator of Beducation®, a source of objective and educated knowledge about mattresses, componentry and sleep ergonomics.
We Learn About Mattresses So You Don’t Have To!™
:)
Go to Beducation Expert Profile & Articles
Go to Beducation Business Profile & Info
  • Page:
  • 1

TOPIC:

How can I durably replicate that showroom pillow topper feel? 13 Jan 2018 15:44 #1

As this is my first post, it must start with a huge "thank you" to Phoenix for operating and moderating this forum. Without this forum, mattress buying would be a considerably more opaque and challenging process.

To avoid the XY problem, some context first: I've been looking for a new mattress because my Simmons St. Anthony Luxury Firm (a Jordan's Furniture entry-level mattress from 2013) has degraded to the point that it's no longer supportive or comfortable. While searching for a new mattress, I tried a PranaSleep Super Vinyasa Luxury Firm at a Jordan's near me and was delighted by the feel in the store. It had the right balance of pillow topper and underlying firmness that I was looking for. However I had objections to buying one, now 5 years wiser and burned once before.
  1. I did not know how the quilting layer would hold up; it isn't clear what sort of polyfoam they're using in the assembly. Jordan's website lists some layers of soft 2.5LB polyfoam and the cross-section of an apparently related mattress (maybe a Wahe?) at Gardner's Mattress doesn't suggest anything particularly resilient to me.
  2. The lack of a competitive return policy at Jordan's (one-time exchange only) made the high price of the mattress unacceptable given my concerns over the longevity of the quilting.
  3. I was highly biased to prefer it because the mattress was in a sequestered room with other "natural-only" mattresses; the room was considerably quieter than the main showroom and thus more comfortable to me.
But I really fell in love with the feel of the mattress. I'm totally sold on latex in mattresses; I'd never encountered it as a mattress material before. In searching for a mattress that would approximately replicate it but with less risk, I've realized a few things. For one, I find it very valuable to be able to repair or change mattresses easily (e.g. cases with zippers); it hadn't occurred to me this was an option. I'm a lot more willing to accept the risk of not returning or exchanging a full mattress if I can change parts of it. For two, I don't think I like laying on straight latex; I like some sort of other quilting or comfort layer like polyfoam or wool batting. The straight latex I've laid on always "floats" me too much, even when my lumbar and shoulders feel appropriately supported. Lastly, I'm kind of annoyed by the Jordan's showroom.

I haven't found any off-the-shelf products or mattresses that match what I'm looking for. My current thinking is that I'll assemble a medium-firm mattress matching the PranaSleep Super Vinyasa, which has its construction approximately described on Jordan's website: 1" medium latex, 2" medium-firm latex, and a 6" latex core, I'm assuming respectively ~24ILD, ~30ILD, and ~38ILD given the 100% Talalay vendors products. Then I need to find some separate pillow topper component for the mattress.

The best option I've come across so far looks to be the "Diamond Quilted Mattress Cover" from Foam Order, which is replaceable but is partly latex. I've also considered using a 2" or 3" wool topper. I'm curious if there are any other good topper or cover options out there, or if perhaps anyone has experience with the aforementioned mattress cover? Or perhaps I've been going the wrong direction, and there are latex comfort layers that aren't going to float me?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by jezz.

How can I durably replicate that showroom pillow topper feel? 17 Jan 2018 13:51 #2

Hi jezz.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum! :)

Thank you for your appreciation.
Quite a bit of information and challenging questions – perfect for TMU!

I've been looking for a new mattress because my Simmons St. Anthony Luxury Firm (a Jordan's Furniture entry-level mattress from 2013) has degraded to the point that it's no longer supportive or comfortable.


I am sorry to hear that your 2014 Simmons mattress does not serve you any longer and although I don’t know if this was an “entry” level product you’ll generally get only 4-5 years from brands that use lower quality materials in their componentry. Many manufacturers make a wide range of mattresses that can vary from lower quality and less durable materials to higher quality and more durable materials in a wide range of prices.

The major brands such as Sealy/Stearns & Foster, Simmons, and Serta all tend to use lower quality and less durable materials in their mattresses than most of their smaller competitors that will tend to soften or break down prematurely relative to the price you pay which is why I would generally suggest avoiding all of them completely (along with the major retailers that focus on them as well) regardless of how they may feel in a showroom along with any mattress where you aren't able to find out the type and quality/durability of the materials inside it (see the guidelines here . along with post #3 here . and post #12 here . and post #404 here .).

I tried a PranaSleep Super Vinyasa Luxury Firm at a Jordan's near me and was delighted by the feel in the store. It had the right balance of pillow topper and underlying firmness that I was looking for. However I had objections to buying one, now 5 years wiser and burned once before.


PranaSleep is basically a latex mattress with a polyfoam quilt panel that uses proprietary foams and has better quality and materials than your previous Simmons mattress. The 2.5 lb quilt-able polyfoam is very high density (unique to quilt layers) The high density foam in the comfort layers is very good quality (giving overtime only a minimal loss of height i.e. body impressions), has a non-woven material “wrap” around the foam layers as well as exceptional initial comfort with no weak links.

I did not know how the quilting layer would hold up; it isn't clear what sort of polyfoam they're using in the assembly. Jordan's website lists some layers of soft 2.5LB polyfoam and the cross-section of an apparently related mattress (maybe a Wahe?) at Gardner's Mattress doesn't suggest anything particularly resilient to me.


As mentioned before the 2.5 lb poly would be a good quality and durable material and there aren’t generally any materials for a cause of concern quality-wise per what is listed by Jordan’s. If ever in doubt
You always want to make sure that you find out the information listed here so you can compare the quality of the materials and components to the durability guidelines here to make sure there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress that would be a cause for concern relative to the durability and useful life of a mattress before making any purchase.

Resiliency isn’t durability, but an indicator of surface “springiness” or elasticity. More resilient is more buoyant feeling, The material listed are in actuality better quality and you can read about materials and components that are all high quality materials that are very unlikely to reduce the durability or useful life of a mattress in the the durability guidelines mentioned above t

I was highly biased to prefer it because the mattress was in a sequestered room with other "natural-only" mattresses; the room was considerably quieter than the main showroom and thus more comfortable to me.


Having a quiet room can help someone relax and be less self-conscious trying out a product, but the comfort of the mattress is the same regardless of where it is placed in a showroom.

I haven't found any off-the-shelf products or mattresses that match what I'm looking for. My current thinking is that I'll assemble a medium-firm mattress matching the PranaSleep Super Vinyasa, which has its construction approximately described on Jordan's website: 1" medium latex, 2" medium-firm latex, and a 6" latex core, I'm assuming respectively ~24ILD, ~30ILD, and ~38ILD given the 100% Talalay vendors products. Then I need to find some separate pillow topper component for the mattress.


It is unlikely that you will be finding any off the shelf products that match exactly the feel of Parana. From your description and excitement it appears that you are considering not just a DIY latex mattress design, but one in which you design/engineer it yourself. Although this can be a lot of fun it entails a lot of trial and error as you would need to gather a great deal of experience in the process. If you are attracted to the idea of designing and building your own DIY mattress out of separate components that are purchased from one or several different sources then the first place I would start is by reading option 3 in post #15 here and the posts it links to (and option #1 and #2 as well) so that you have more realistic expectations and that you are comfortable with the learning curve, uncertainty, trial and error, or in some cases the higher costs that may be involved in the DIY process. It is also very doubtful that you will be able to exactly replicate the feel of Prana.

I would strongly suggest avoiding the temptation of trying to design your own mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress) and instead work closely with the retailers and manufacturers that are of interest to you and use careful testing and feedback from your own body along with the expertise each of them has about their own mattresses to help you make your best choices. Your body doesn't understand specs ... only what I call PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences)
You would be better off talking with a knowledgeable retailer or manufacturer and while you are clearly free to pursue this, you may want to check with some of TMU’s Trusted Members who are very experienced in latex, such as:
For Latex or All Latex sytems
For Innerspring Hybrids
For Poly Memory Foam combos

The best option I've come across so far looks to be the "Diamond Quilted Mattress Cover" from Foam Order, which is replaceable but is partly latex. I've also considered using a 2" or 3" wool topper. I'm curious if there are any other good topper or cover options out there, or if perhaps anyone has experience with the aforementioned mattress cover? Or perhaps I've been going the wrong direction, and there are latex comfort layers that aren't going to float me?


The Diamond Quilted Mattress Cover you cite is a mattress encasement using 2” of polyester fiber and 1” of latex quilted.
(very different than 1-2” of 2.5 lb polyfoam that you seem to like)
A 2” or 3” wool topper will also produce a comfortable, but different feel than your experience with PranaSleep. There is more information about choosing a topper in post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to, which along with a conversation with a reliable and knowledgeable supplier (that can provide you with good information about how their toppers compare to each other or to other toppers they are familiar with that are available on the market), can help you use your sleeping experience as a reference point and guideline to help you choose the type, thickness, and firmness for a topper that has the least possible risk and the best chance for success.

While it can certainly be a rewarding project ... the best approach to a DIY mattress is a "spirit of adventure" where what you learn and the satisfaction that comes from the process itself is more important than any cost savings you may realize (which may or may not happen).

I hope this gives you enough information to help you narrow down your options.
Feel free to reach out.

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

How can I durably replicate that showroom pillow topper feel? 17 Jan 2018 18:10 #3

Thank you for the exceptionally informative reply, especially your assessment of the diamond quilted cover. I had completely missed that it was polyester fiber rather than layers of foam, which now I don't think I'd like.

I think I'm going to have an adventure and assemble a mattress myself. A friend of mine has a couple of spare layers of latex from a failed comfort exchange (2" N2 and 3" N4 from Talalay Global with some extra basement lint). I think I'm going to buy a 6" core, foundation, and some lint rollers and try sleeping on them. Based on how I feel after sleeping on them I'll try changing them out or perhaps add a wool topper, though I do wonder if I'll adapt and sleep fine. Broadly speaking I don't mind trial and error, because I love experimenting with things.

That said I wish that there was a mattress case that could tolerate a range of heights, but I suppose a mattress protector will work in the short term. I don't think I'm quite ready to commit to a particular mattress thickness yet though.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

How can I durably replicate that showroom pillow topper feel? 18 Jan 2018 11:48 #4

Hi jezz,

Yes, it's a good idea to hold off on a final mattress encasement until you get the layers the way that you like them. There are a few out there which are adjustable to 2 different heights, but I'd wait. That way you can get exactly what you want.

Good luck!

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

How can I durably replicate that showroom pillow topper feel? 19 Feb 2018 09:28 #5

I had the fortune of helping my friend (with the spare comfort layers) assemble his foundation. It was a PlushBeds Low Profile Orthopedic Foundation . We had such a terrible time with it that I bought a different foundation for my bed; I went with a U.S. Box Spring Natural Wood Foundation in 5.5" .

Both are fundamentally the same design; three wood rails in the queen models bookended with wood frame; the pictures do it justice. There are 2 large differences though that significantly impacted the ergonomics of assembly.

First, the PlushBeds foundation only has a single bolt per end per rail (6 bolts total) compared to the two bolts per end in the U.S. Box Spring foundation (12 bolts total). While there is still looseness in the U.S. Box Spring foundation, the PlushBeds foundation rails could rotate completely freely. This was improved somewhat once we put the slats on because the Velcro slightly held things together, however due to the nature of the cover we were still lifting and maneuvering the foundation and loosed the slats more than once. The zippered cover is just barely large enough for the foundation, so it requires considerable effort to get on. These two aspects combined made the assembly awful, though the assembled foundation is remarkably stable; the tension of the cover keeps the slats in place. That said, we both believe the foundation will need to be disassembled should my friend ever move; the slats slide out if the foundation is tilted too much. We're also both disappointed that this isn't reflected in the photos on PlushBeds' website.

Second, the U.S. Box Spring foundation's cover is not a zipper cover, but rather a "5-sided" cover (missing the bottom). This combined with the additional bolts made assembly almost trivial. Once the frame was assembled, I could drop it into my bed frame, drop the slats on, and then apply the cover without moving the frame; in fact I did this alone in about an hour from box-to-bed. The only aspect that made this not completely trivial was the Velcro on the bottom of the foundation to attach the cover to; I assembled my foundation on a carpet so pulling it up was embarrassingly challenging. This does basically guarantee that I'll need to take the foundation apart if I ever move, or find some more permanent way to affix the slats to the foundation (likely staples), however assembly was easy enough that this is an acceptable trade off for me.

I inexplicably appreciate the aesthetic of the zippered cover even though the bottom of the foundation is never seen once assembled. I can kind of imagine the zippered cover might keep dust out better, but then it's notably easier to get under my bed with a vacuum and clean out any accumulated dust in the foundation. It also makes my under-bed storage quite a bit nicer, as it frees up the height of the foundation.

I'll assemble the rest of the bed in a bit; all of my parts have arrived so I should be able to get it together by tonight.
Edit: Currently on 2" N2, 3" N4, and 6" of C4 from Mountain Top Foam. It's about as comfortable as I expected; if anything it's slightly too soft, though I'm not sure if it's the N2 layer or the C4 core. I do seem to bottom it out when I sit on the edge; this might just be growing pains coming from a lumpy innerspring though.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by jezz.

How can I durably replicate that showroom pillow topper feel? 20 Feb 2018 01:08 #6

Hi jezz.

Thank you for your detailed and informative comparison of the two foundations you assembled.
I am sure that those considering either of these products will find your account very useful.

Great to hear that the layer combination is working well for you. “Bottoming out” on the edge is quite normal and it will have a different feel than the innerspring edge.
Your “adventure” certainly progressed quite nicely. :)

I’d be curious to know how everything comes together in the end for you.
Keep us posted.

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

How can I durably replicate that showroom pillow topper feel? 06 Mar 2018 17:26 #7

A short follow up: 2" N2/3" N4/6" C4 feels quite comfortable to me. I was somewhat concerned that the mattress would feel "inconsistent" because of the zoning of the C4 core, but I don't really notice it. I may switch the 2" N2 for 2" of N3 because even after 2 weeks, I think the mattress still feels too soft. 3" N4 over 6" C4 is too firm though, and 3" N4/2" N2/6" C4 feels too different from what I'm used to. I also don't own a pillow that feels good to me on the mattress, but I think I'll solve that after I settle on a layering.

The dog approves though; I caught her jumping on it like a trampoline.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

How can I durably replicate that showroom pillow topper feel? 09 Mar 2018 04:38 #8

Hi jezz.

Thanks for the update.

It looks like everything progresses nicely and you are on “top” of it. :)
Happy to hear that the dog approves or your new mattress … very important to keep her happy.

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Page:
  • 1
Moderators: MattressToGo
TheMattressUndergounf
TMU
TheMattressUndergounf