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issues with 5" 20ILD comfort layer due to misidentification of mattress toplayer

11 Jan 2019 05:23 #11 by mike7000
to re-summarize for clarity:
  • originally purchased 9" SoL mattress operating under the assumption it was 6" 34ILD / 2" 28ILD - to be used in conjunction with my sleepez 3" talalay 20ILD topper. the 6" and 2" layers are glued together and could not be seperated
  • while i did not exhibit any pain over the first two months, there was excessive "hammock" feeling that just didn't feel right and i couldn't quite figure out why the mattress was behaving that way. but it was clear to me the behavior was not as it should be
  • i finally re-researched the ILD of the mattress and determined it was actually 6" 34ILD / 2" 20ILD - which when used with my 3" topper meant a total of 5" 20ILD comfort layer.
  • upon realizing my mistake of what i thought the mattress configuration was, that was my "eureka" moment when i finally had data and an explanation for why i was feeling the excessive "hammock" feeling. so i was simply happy to realize the mistake of misidentifying the mattress and that it did NOT have the transition 28ILD
  • i flipped the mattress over to test out just having the 6"34 ILD support layer with my 3" talalay 20ILD topper (and the 2" 20ILD layer on very bottom - which i thought was effectively ignored in overall feeling of the support layer above)
  • the mattress in this configuration: 2" 20ILD (very bottom of mattress), 6" 34ILD, 3" 20ILD talalay topper, offered good support, no pains, and good softness/comfort of the top talalay layer. this was me stating my issues were "solved"
  • i presumed the very bottom layer of the 2" 20ILD of the flipped-over mattress was not having any effect on the support layer above. i did not want to keep the flipped-over mattress as a final configuration, so i took the opportunity to return the 9" mattress and reorder with JUST the 6" 34ILD base - which i would use with my 3" 20ILD talalay topper
  • upon receiving the new mattress, in the new configuration WITHOUT the very bottom 2" 20ILD layer, the overall mattress felt much firmer and even my 3" talalay 20ILD topper did not feel as plush or soft - and i could certainly feel the 6" 34ILD support base under the topper far more easily than before

so i'm trying to understand why there is such a drastic difference in feel between the original, flipped over mattress:
  • 2" 20ILD / 6" 34ILD / 3" talalay 20ILD topper

and the new mattress configuration without the very bottom 20ILD layer:
  • 6" 34ILD / 3" talalay 20ILD topper

the only potential possibilities i could think of are:
  • original mattress was 2 months old and the support layer had time to "soften up" slightly - but it is my understanding that dunlop really wouldnt have much expected softening over time
  • the 2" 20ILD on the very bottom allowed the 6" support layer above to slightly sink down, or just provide a little extra support that somehow softened up the overall feel of the mattress
  • the new mattress was sent with a higher ILD value than the original mattress. i don't believe this is the case as the feel seems consistent with 34ILD (vs a much firmer 40+)

i returned the original mattress because i did not want to keep a final configuration with a "flipped-over" mattress with a 2" 20ILD very-bottom layer that was just taking up space. but i did not expect the removal of that layer to cause the support layers to feel so much more firm.

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11 Jan 2019 10:55 #12 by Sweet Dreams
I think your second possibility is the most likely explanation of what you've experienced. While a softer layer below your support layer and topper will have the least relative effect being at the bottom of the stack, it will allow the layers above to flex some as they can slightly sink into the soft base layer. Imagine the difference if your support layer and topper were instead placed on a solid surface, they could not then have any flexibility at their base level which would be perceived as being firmer. Just my thoughts on logically answering your question, but there is no substitute for your personal experience with any given configuration.

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11 Jan 2019 12:50 #13 by Sleep EZ
Hello Mike

To answer your question as to why the new mattress could feel firmer than your original setup.. all of your listed possibilities could be the cause. Latex will soften (even Dunlop) approximately 5% during the first 90 days (this is standard latex breaking in). Having a 2" soft layer underneath the 36ILD core does indeed allow that core to sink in a bit, which will feel softer compared to that core sitting directly on a platform. Lastly, the material that the foam is encased in can loosen up over the first few months, and will feel softer and more contouring compared to the same material being brand new.

Anytime you either rearrange or remove any layer density within a mattress, the overall feel on the surface will change every time. The lower in the mattress the layer change is, the less of a difference you feel on top..but you still feel it.

Thanks again for all the updates/feedback. Please let us know what you decide to do to soften your configuration.

Sleep EZ & Kiss Mattress Ph: (800) 710-9846 / (480) 966-8731
Please read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Trusted Members.

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11 Jan 2019 16:18 - 11 Jan 2019 16:22 #14 by mike7000
thank you both of you for the responses - that sounds logical, it was just rather surprising and unexpected that such a minor change would cause a starkly-noticeable difference in terms of firmness.

as to the introduction of a ~28ILD medium transition layer:
  • 150lbs 6'1'' - and knowing that i experienced too much "hammock" sink-in with the 5" 20ILD, what would be an appropriate thickness transition layer? with my lower weight, would 2" likely be sufficient, and/or would 3" (even at 28ILD) perhaps offer too much hammock?
  • in what way would a talalay transition layer offer any perceived benefits over dunlop? i understand the compression modulo re dunlop and it "firming up faster", but would a medium talalay "mate" better in terms of feel with the 3"talalay 20ILD topper?

thank you for the informed responses.
Last edit: 11 Jan 2019 16:22 by mike7000.

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11 Jan 2019 16:59 #15 by Sweet Dreams
I don't feel qualified to address your questions regarding a transition layer, and would suggest working directly with your preferred seller who can use their direct experience to best address your needs.

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12 Jan 2019 09:16 #16 by Sensei
Hi mike7000,

I just wanted to take a moment to comment on your post. Thank you as always to Sweet Dreams, you are always such a helpful and knowledgeable member. I also want to make sure I mention that Sleep EZ is one of our most respected members and their long history in the latex mattress business is very well respected and I am quite confident they will be able to help you, so please don't hesitate to keep working with them.

I totally understand your surprise at the difference between feels of the older flipped over (6"34/2"20) and the newer 6" 34ild....for me, it's not entirely surprising. As has been mentioned even 2" at the bottom can make a difference, and also true with latex the 34 ILD has a range of density / ILD so many times they don't feel exactly alike from core to core. I also want to point out that the way a cover, whether zippered or not, "finishes" a mattress can have an effect on the feel of the mattress. For instance, a cover that maybe is a 1/4 inch smaller around the mattress will "firm up" the mattress. Even the cover made of the exact same construction, maybe the one for the 7" version is a tighter fit, I am not saying it was out of spec just that these factors can also affect the "difference" you are feeling.

The 28ILD is a really good choice for the transition layer, but be cautious with using these layers as separate toppers as they "feel" different compared to using them in a finished mattress. Again, Sleep EZ has so much experience, they have tried many of these combinations, and have seen these issues before. Thanks again

Sleep well,

Sensei(@ TMU Team)
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12 Jan 2019 09:58 #17 by mike7000
acknowledged and thank you for the continued input. the possibility of the new 6" support layer cover having to break-in or loosen-up slightly is another factor i was not cognizant of.

i was under the impression sleep ez did NOT offer a 28ILD (just the higher 30-32 medium), but their online support just informed me they can order 28ILD. i will continue working with them. thank you.

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12 Jan 2019 11:27 #18 by Sleep EZ
Hello Mike

If you were a brand new customer with SleepEZ and you called our office for advice on a mattress model and layer configurations, based on your height, weight and preferred sleep positions, I would have recommended the 10" (three 3" layers) mattress model with a soft over medium over firm configuration. At 6'1", 150lbs, the 3" soft (19-20ILD) layer on top would provide the contour you will need to ensure you eliminate pressure points. The medium (30-32ILD) over firm (37-38ILD) would provide the gradual support to ensure that you have proper spinal alignment. In most cases.. our customers choose Talalay for just their top layer, and Dunlop (more support) for their bottom two support layers. Over the years we have found that this configuration has worked and is ideal for customers that are primarily side and/or back sleepers weighing between 100 and 180lbs. Should a customer prefer a soft mattress, we would recommend the top two layers (soft and medium) be Talalay due to the fact that Talalay is a bit softer than that of the Dunlop latex.

I hope this information helps you with your current layer situation. In most cases, a 'transition' layer is needed for gradual support. In your case, at 150lbs, that transition layer is usually a medium density (anywhere between 28 and 32ILD).

Let us know if you have any other questions. Good luck!

Sleep EZ & Kiss Mattress Ph: (800) 710-9846 / (480) 966-8731
Please read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Trusted Members.

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12 Jan 2019 15:36 - 12 Jan 2019 15:40 #19 by mike7000
thank you. at this point i do not foresee any issues with the mattress itself (6" 34ILD base). the 3" 20ILD talalay topper i have from you is still providing good pressure relief as i am not waking up with any shoulder or hip pain when side sleeping. i had some slight pains a few nights ago when i made the update, but that was perhaps a single-night anomaly as i haven't experienced any further pains or discomfort since - and perhaps the new 6" 34ILD mattress is still "softening" up.

i believe now what i'm simply looking to solve is related solely to overall comfort and plushness of the mattress itself - versus any sort of spinal alignment or specific issue that causes pain or discomfort. ie, the current mattress configuration "feels" too firm and is not meeting my "comfort" requirements in terms of perceived softness.

ill give it a few more days to see if the new mattress (6" 34ILD base) continues to soften at all, but i think my next move will be to order your 28ILD 3" talalay to function as a transition layer to help "soften" the feel of the upper comfort layer topper and provide a little more "sink in" before hitting the firm 34ILD base.

procuring the 3" 28ILD talalay will also provide me with an additional configuration option as i will be able to experience the difference in feel by switching the 3" 20ILD and 3" 28ILD around (20ILD transition, 28ILD talalay as top/comfort layer) - and seeing which i prefer best.

i suppose the only "risk" to this is whether the 3" 28ILD talalay + 3" 20ILD talalay configuration may provide too much sink-in (due to compression modulo/difference vs that of dunlop), and may cause spinal misalignment. any thoughts on whether this is something you've seen customers experience, or is 28ILD sufficiently firm enough (with respect to my weight) NOT to provide overly excessive sink-in when used in conjunction with the 3" 20ILD top layer.
Last edit: 12 Jan 2019 15:40 by mike7000.

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14 Jan 2019 14:28 #20 by Sleep EZ
As long as the 28ILD is sitting on a firm 36-40ILD layer, then you are in the right ballpark as far as the correct configuration is concerned. Let us know how it works out. Good luck!

Sleep EZ & Kiss Mattress Ph: (800) 710-9846 / (480) 966-8731
Please read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Trusted Members.

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